Said, when I was researching you for this interview, I learned that you are a sustainable energy specialist. You've worked in the industry for more than two decades, and contributed to major projects in sustainable energy in the Middle East and in Africa. What led you to pursue your passion for Whiskey and make this career switch?

Right. So I guess this is more of a philosophical point, you know, you, you live a life and you hope that to justify your existence is to have a purpose. What are you here for? When I started doing sustainability and environmental stuff I was very young. It was long before it was a trendy thing to do. Because I thought it was important. I work mostly in development work in Africa and Pacific islands, doing village electrification and that kind of stuff. Because I felt that I was justifying my existence, it was important work to do. And I enjoyed it. I did it for a long time, and it was fulfilling for me to do it. But at the same time, as I got more senior in my role, I ended up being further and further removed from the sharp end of the project to the point where I couldn't actually eyeball the project and the beneficiaries of what I was doing. So the further and further that I went in my seniority, I would see less and less of the impact that I was having. So it came after two decades, where I realized that I wasn't getting that fulfillment that I was hoping to get anymore. I couldn't see that person in a remote village that was getting access to electricity and the joy in their face anymore. I was too senior for that it was too far removed. I needed to find a different way to live my life.

I did hospitality, when I was young, going through university and stuff, so I knew a lot about it. So I had that background from my early life. So when I decided to quit that work, Whiskey was an interesting topic for me, because as well as enjoying it, I was joining private clubs with other experts in the remote areas that we work together. And it was a product that really appealed to me because the care and time that it took to make whiskey. There was something about whiskey that resonated with me. It's a unique product, but I don't want to talk about whiskey right now. The point is that aside from everything else, it was something that really showed the passion that everybody had when they got involved in this product from people who make the barrel, the cooperation all the way people who own these businesses that they have to wait, sometimes two decades before they can see a return on their investment. So that showed me a great deal about the type of people who really have a purpose when they get involved in that business. So for me, it was okay, I enjoy it. And I want to do something different. What else do I do? Whiskey was recommended to me by somebody. So I decided to think about how I could have a place that could have this elements in it and this business was was born. But also this is not a regular Whiskey Bar. There is a lot of things about you, that is different to traditional Whiskey Bar. And that's also goes back to that element.

It's interesting that you mentioned that because you think at first glance that working in the field of sustainability and energy is very different from a Whiskey Bar, which it is, but then that's probably exactly what attracted you, that here you actually have that hands on experience. I was reading some reviews about the Malt Vault online and a lot of people were saying that it's really the best hospitality experience that they've had in the Netherlands. So obviously when people come here they're getting a very good, direct relationship with you and with juicy and the people who run the place, which you did not necessarily have when you were a senior in the field of sustainable energy.

That's exactly the point, because we are a different type of whiskey place and the majority of our customers are between 22 and 35. These are new whiskey drinkers. In fact, we have many people whose first whiskey experiences started here. When I see the transformation and the look on their face, then that's that instant gratification that I get and I feel that, okay, I have managed to introduce somebody to something new. You might think that it's just whiskey, it's not world peace or something. But I think, in the scheme of things, every step in a human beings' growth journey is a step. It might be, you know, the first time you drink whiskey, where you learn to appreciate a drink for what it brings, or it could be what you're doing in sustainability, as long as you are part of the growth process.

Clearly the the happiness of the customers is very important to you. Was it your customers who first suggested having period products at the Malt Vault? Or was this an idea that came from from a different angle?

So I have had relationships, I've had many female friends, and whatever. And I've heard this story many times in my life. And, of course, when you are not in the situation you don't do anything about it. But then when I'm in the situation where I own a bar, I am in a position where I can do something about it.

I wanted to do something about providing tampons and pads a few years ago, but I was extremely reluctant. Because, as they say, the the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I didn't want to be in that scenario where you try to do something nice and you mess it up.

And then you get backlash. Because this is not my struggle, I'm a man, I've have never had to worry about that kind of issue. I do want to do something, of course. But I don't want to do it in a bad way, where I provide the wrong product. I didn't want to miss the mark. So it was after speaking a few members of my staff, my manager, and a couple of others, like Juicy. And then finally, what confirmed it was talking to Esther. I raised the problem that okay, I'm happy to do it, I've been wanting to do it for a while, but I don't want to then get comments that the tampon wasn't the best quality that you can get, or it wasn't this or it wasn't that because I don't want to have to then make the problem worse. It was important to do it the right way. And then of course, a few ladies like Juicy, Esther and Mel said ladies would be happy to have whatever they can get at the time when they need it. And that [the quality] was not as big an issue as I thought. And that gave me confidence to move forward with it. That's when it actually was executed. So of course, I have to thank Esther for giving me the confidence. But that was my biggest hurdle. You know, you try to do something for an issue, which you are not affected by. And that was my struggle, and will be the struggle of many other bar owners who are not female.

But then you were actually discussing with your female staff and you were asking them what they thought, so would you say that this discussion is an important part of the of the process?

Of course, I think there is a lot of taboo about discussing bodily functions. That's not just a menstrual issue as some people don't like talking about the toilet or anything like that. But if you go to any establishment, you have toilet and toilet paper, and that's normalized. It's not like there is a choice in the matter [of menstruating], it is something that happens and should be treated just the same way. So the discussion, of course, came from that point.

What are some of the reactions you've actually gotten from your customers since you started providing the period products?

Extremely positive, actually an extremely positive, overwhelming reaction.

We have a lot of regular clients here. And many of them took pictures and posted on their Instagram and social media, because they were quite excited by it. It's been extremely positive.

I mean, if there has been any negative comment, nobody's brought it to me. They might have thought that, you know, we don't want to see [the MenstruBox]. But we've not heard anything but positive comments.

And also the way that you designed the boxes is very subtle. Would you say that's also an important part of it?

This is a funny one because I think the hardest part, even harder than deciding to buy tampons, was how to present it in a way that is not tacky, condescending, or out of place. It is acceptable and polite and at the same time easy to understand. I think we've all seen the TV commercials of tampons and a lot of them are cringe worthy. We didn't want to go down that road of showing, you know, rose petals and girls running in the meadows and things like that. That was not the direction.

Said’s MenstruBox!

You decided to go for the direction of the badass gun-slinging women on the box.

Yeah so the idea was that, you know, this is a strong woman, she's a cowgirl with a six shooter in one hand and a drink in her other hand, and she's quite confident and comfortable. And it's part of her life.

This is not a misfortune, this is not something that is a taboo and it is not a compliment either. We're not providing a complimentary thing and we don't want medals and glories for it. Menstruation is a normal thing and is something that is as normal as being a human being.

So that was the challenge; to get that text and the picture right. So it doesn't come across as a favour or a privilege.

Would you say that this was one of the main negatives for you as well, just really not being sure whether it was going to be the right way of presenting the issue?

Yeah, so I sent out this question to everyone we know on our network. And a whole bunch of people that are aware of the project, they got a note from me saying what should we write, what should we do? And the majority said, just leave a box. Ladies are generally curious people, and they will open it up and find it. And on like, the 11th hour, that was the decision to go. But then suddenly I had a bit of a Eureka moment, and the text and the image came together, which I thought was better. Also because we are going to open up another place. Hopefully [periodic] is going to be a greater campaign, but there must be a point at which we set the tone of how this message should be communicated. It should not be, like I mentioned, those TV commercials where they are really fluffing up the topic as though it doesn't exist or being too medical and clinical about it. It should be something that is just a normal thing. That's where I thought that no, I do want to put the text and the image, because that's the tone that I believe it should be set.

As you have mentioned, you've gotten very positive feedback so far. So given all of the feedback that you've gotten, why do you think more businesses haven't started doing this already?

I really don't know. I cannot speak for other businesses. But of course, owning a hospitality business is not an easy business. Often, people who visit this type of establishment, they only see the tip of the iceberg. There is a lot more that goes on behind the scenes that people don't see.

The challenges of running a business is quite a big burden for for many business owners and the issue may not be on their radar.

I don't want to say that people don't do it because they're not interested. It's just that in most cases, the situation is not presented to them. I think, like every movement in human history, it always starts with a trickle and then it ends up becoming a movement. I think once a couple of more places have it, I think most bar owners wouldn't think twice about doing it. I really don't think there's any barrier, financially or mentally in doing it. I think the problem is just that nobody's been made aware of it in a coherent way.

Because when I was researching a little bit with the team initially about this topic, we found out that actually 10% of women in the Netherlands can't afford period products. So this was also what got us thinking about, okay, this is something which should be widely accessible. Not just in bars and businesses but also in public spaces, just in all areas, and this is kind of where it starts. It's necessary to prevent inconvenience of not having products or any shame or anything that can come with that. I was also wondering if you maybe have thoughts on how the government should go about this, do you think it's something they should just impose and make mandatory everywhere? Do you think it should be up to the individual bars and individual businesses to decide whether or not they want this?

Well, we are now nearly at a two year mark of this COVID thing. And as a hospitality business, of course, we've been hit very hard with this. And you know [it's] all about government imposed rules and regulations. One of the reasons I live in this country, and this was a very conscious decision, is that I think this is one of the most politically aware populations in the world. People have a higher level of education, people are smart enough to be aware of the situation, I think making things you know, mandatory is really totally, in my opinion, not necessary. I think awareness campaigns are definitely necessary. Just a parallel point; I, as I mentioned, worked in Africa, in the development sector for many years, and many African countries suffer from HIV. In almost all government buildings, there are free condoms available which are provided to the local population. So to me, I'm not making the parallel. I'm not saying the government should provide free tampons. That's a different debate. I think first step would be awareness, because I don't really think that the cost of it in the scheme of things is that much. But of course, there are things that the government can do, I'm sure, like tax rebates and allowances. People who are much more clever than me can decide on that. But I know a few other business owners like me and I don't think it is a financial barrier. I think in the scheme of things, if there is a good plan presented to them, if the package was done for the businesses, with the text, the graphic, the box and a slogan- because people have a lot to think about, they're running a business. If this was already built for them, then it would be done. I'm sure.

As you said, we're at the two year COVID mark. A lot of businesses already have so many other costs and things they're worrying about. But as I understand it, you're saying that this isn't that much of a financial burden that they can't have these period products when they reopen again.

I think it's quite easy. I guarantee you, if somebody walked to one of my colleagues around the corner with a ready made box, with the image, text and couple of information packs, which is already filled in for the first time and says, 'put this in your toilet. All you have to do from now on is just make sure it's filled up once a week or whatever, when you change the toilet paper in the toilet, keep an eye on it and top it up.' That would do it. I don't think that's a big challenge.

And then onto one of my final questions. What was one of the biggest things you've actually learned since providing these period products and starting this initiative?

Well, the biggest point was it was a real positive reaction from clients. But of course if there was anything more personal, I'm the guy who owns the place and nobody's personally come to me to tell me how that specifically changed their situation for that particular day when they were visiting the bar. I think they would have had their friends to discuss this with, rather than me. But I'm quite humbled by the response, because to me, this was a very small thing that we did. Really, really small thing that is not really a big deal. And it's been a fantastic experience, because it really shows how small things that impacts on wider parts of our community are neglected so easily. And while the solution is so simple.

So then this kind of ties into my last question, what advice would you have for any businesses, who are thinking about starting this, and also providing free period products?

Listen, all businesses need to stay true to their own brand and profile and how they present themselves to the public. So I do not wish for anybody to step outside their comfort zone. There are right ways to do it and there are inappropriate ways to do it. I encourage them to speak to the ladies around them, you know; their staff members, their family members, and try to get honest feedback about how they would like to do it. Everybody should be comfortable with the way they present this process. I think at the end, if the owners are men, then they should be honest with themselves that this is not a topic that they can have that much input on and they need to really take advice, with openness, and with the willingness to deliver. Because it's not our struggle as men, it's not for us to have an opinion on.

That seems like a very democratic approach to implementing the initiative. Thank you so much for the interview. Is there anything else you want to add to this?

No, thank you. And I appreciate that you're aware, you're spending your own personal time to do this, especially. I've just met you but Esther and I had really nice conversations about this. And I always get excited about people who actually take time from their personal life to do something that they feel is important. And I should be thanking you guys because these kinds of steps are what makes for a better community and a better society. Thank you.