All right, and the reason we're conducting this interview is because the VU was the very first University in the Netherlands to actually hand out free menstrual products to their students in 2021. And it was through an SRVU initiative, which was founded by Kata Rakić, who was at the time, the vice chairman of the SRVU. So I guess my first question is what brought on this initiative? How were you a part of it? Where did the idea come from?

Nienke Makkreel:

I wasn't part of the SRVU then, but now I've taken over the dossier. So it all started when they started providing free period products in Scotland. After that, there was an attempt in politics to do a similar thing in the Netherlands, but it failed, sadly. And as student representatives, we know that students have a hard time financially: think of the funding - ‘de basisbeurs’ (the basic grant) - that does not exist anymore. And with the high prices for housing, it's a lot for students financially. And then for students who menstruate, there are financial costs of menstruating, so paying for period products. To kind of help students with that part of their financial costs, we thought of the initiative to start with providing free products at University. Of course, we would want products to be free everywhere, but by starting in that way, we can help students with those costs.

I think that's really important, because especially in Amsterdam, I think the living costs for students are very, very high as is, so it's really considerate as an initiative. So Peter, I think you were one of the original members that started this initiative. I want to ask whether it was something that came up internally through the SRVU or something that other students in the VU kind of brought up to you. Was it an idea that was generated from within or an idea that was kind of already in the environment that you just materialized?

Pieter van Rossum:

As far as I understand, it was something that came up internally through one of our board board members, Kata. And of course, because of the news of the failed political attempt and the fact that in Scotland, this was possible. She kind of got asking around in the VU and to see if we would be able to do something like this on a relatively small scale. And so to answer your question directly, no, it was an internal suggestion. But from then on, we've had a lot of positive feedback from students and members.

I think that already bleeds into one of my follow up questions, which is: what were the initial reactions that you got when you launched this initiative? What kind of reactions did you get at the beginning? And also, what are the reactions like now? Are they still positive? Are they still there?

Nienke Makkreel:

Well, one thing is that the media immediately picks up on it. So it was definitely a topic that was very relevant. And yeah, it was quite big news. But maybe Peter, you could add on how students responded initially when you started the project.

Pieter van Rossum:

Yeah, so the media picked up on it. We were nominated for an ATV arm Award, which was nice. And we were featured in half a dozen-no, no, a whole dozen newspapers and online blogs, and so on. And this is maybe the most interesting part: that we were contacted by educational and government institutes from all over the Netherlands and some even outside of the Netherlands, for best practices, comments, how can we do this, and so on? Which is great, because as we said, we're setting a relatively small step here at VU. It's quite remarkable that our small staff got so much attention. But the fact that we can inspire and help other initiatives all over the Netherlands is quite remarkable, because we're having way more impact than we alone could have.

Yeah, I think that's amazing. And I think it's something that's just very interesting about change in general, that sometimes like a really small step can really lead to a domino effect that you never saw coming, maybe never even intended for. But it's really amazing how small initiatives like this can work, which is also why we're interviewing you now, cause we want to follow through with this and really push for something bigger. So a year since the initiative was launched, what does it look like today? Are students still interested in it? Are students still finding it useful?

Nienke Makkreel:

It's definitely still relevant. Of course, when the initiative first started, it was during COVID times, so there wasn't really a good view of how much it would be used because everyone was at home. Now that the new academic year started, we could really find out what it will be like without covid and quarantine and everything, and it's definitely still used. I hear a lot of students talking about it, it was not just a hype, it's still relevant.

That's amazing and really, really glad to hear that. Because I know a lot of initiatives that have a lot of oomph at the beginning, and then unfortunately, everyone forgets that it happened a while later. So it's really great to see that it's still going on. Maybe you could tell me a little bit about the initiative itself, like how it works. I think it was a period cupboard at the beginning? Could you tell me where it's located? How is it restocked? Walk me through the protocol of how the system works.

Nienke Makkreel:

Yeah, it's a red cupboard. It's really clear that there's menstruation products because it has all kinds of stickers on it, and it's located in a common room in the university where students can meet each other. It's managed by SRVU, so we keep track of the cupboards, but it's financed by the university. So they finance the products that go into it. And then we keep track of when it has to be restocked or things like that. Now, it's a cupboard in a central place at the university, but we would like to expand it:we would like to have products available in every building of the campus. The ultimate goal is to have it available in all the toilets, and that's something we are working on.

Yeah, I think that's amazing. Especially if it becomes way more accessible than it already is. Locating it centrally already does a lot for awareness of the problem. It also does a lot for stigma because everyone just takes it, it's not even in a bathroom, which might also be an interesting way to do it. So Peter, I wanted to ask, were there any negatives or difficulties when you first decided to launch this? Any obstacles that came up that made you think twice? Or any negative reactions? Anything that was a downside to this?

Pieter van Rossum:

So the thing is, our idea behind the initiative initially was very much that we're going to start very, very, very small, so that there won't be many obstacles. Because of all the emails that we've gotten, we know what initiatives started and what initiatives failed, because we keep in contact. A lot of the initiatives that fail start way too big, they think way too ambitious, and they want to change the whole world all at once. And I get that spirit. But the thing is, because we started so incredibly, stupidly simple, we succeeded. When you have the boots on the ground, then you can expand. And that's one of the obstacles that we overcame,  because of course, there were also voices inside our own organization that said, no, we need to do this and this and this. But thankfully, we just started simple. About negative reactions, we were featured on Twitter by the local newspaper, and there were a lot of boomers and whatever, saying like, ahh, these woke universities and so on, and I just had to laugh because they were complaining that we said menstrual products are a basic necessity and a human right, that they should be free. And I think some guy just commented: well, then toilet paper should also be free. And then I said, if you go to university, you don't have to pay for it-it's insane. The density of some people-reactionaries are going to be reactionary, but most reactions from people that I care about were positive, so that's nice. 

Yeah, I think that's really insightful for us as well, because now we're trying to integrate all of these small initiatives and mold it into something bigger, so it's really insightful to hear you say how all these small steps are really important to get your boots on the ground. And I think you're already giving a lot of advice. So I am just gonna ask the question to both of you: what advice, other than what's already been said, of course, would you give to other students or other universities, other institutions that are thinking of replicating this initiative, especially because I think many of them already reached out to you when you initially did this? So what did you manage to tell them about how they can go forward with something like this?

Nienke Makkreel:

The most important thing is: don't be afraid to start small. Because every small initiative is already a big help, so it doesn't have to be grand to start with. It's fine to start small. For people wanting to propose something like this to their school or to their University: just think about the practical things, have it worked out so that the university or school cannot deny the project because of practicalities. It is doable, so just show the university or the school that it's possible. I don't know if you have anything to add Peter?

Pieter van Rossum:

I think that's the core. The fact that when you start small, you can always expand. The reason why starting small is also important because of something like funding through your institution. I think at UvA there is an initiative from the central Student Council that has kind of been blocked by their board of directors, because they wanted to start by doing it in all the bathrooms, all over campus and so on. So that's very costly, and it has had all these implications. There are dozens of examples of why starting too big will just mean that nothing happens. It's insane how easy it was for us, because when we started, we bought a cupboard at IKEA for 200 euros or something, and then we filled it with kruidvat things. It was very cheap. It was very, very fast. And we just put something on social media the next day. And we didn't even think it was that big of a deal. It was something that we just did and then kind of went to live life on its own. So an advice would be just that it's very easy and also not to fall into an endless loop of debating and making ideal worlds and philosophizing and so on. A lot of these initiatives are also dropped because people don't actually start doing something. Awareness is best when you have something physical that actually helps people. You can spread awareness through that. I've had people come to me who said, can we do a social media campaign to tell people about this issue? And I'm like, well, that's great. But awareness doesn't pay the bills. Just do something. It's better, I think.

I think you're already answering another question I was gonna ask, which is why aren't there more initiatives like this out there? The period poverty issue has been around for so long, but so many institutions and organizations are failing to do something about it. I feel like you're already addressing that when you're giving this advice, because I think a lot of these initiatives come from a lack of awareness, and a lack of understanding how to take it off the ground. They either shoot too big, or they end up getting lost in debates. But do you think there's other reasons that they don't take off? Do you think there's other reasons preventing organizations from taking this up as an issue?

Nienke Makkreel:

I think that's the biggest problem: there's not enough awareness of how big the problem of period poverty is. People don’t expect that in a country such as the Netherlands, which is quite a wealthy country, for people to live in poverty, not be able to pay for period products, to have to stay home, or that it's really limiting them in their freedom and their wellbeing. So I think that's one of the big problems, that people don't expect others in the Netherlands to have these kinds of experiences. For a lot of institutions, the objection will be costs, and that's too bad, because as we have shown at VU, it can be done without having to pay enormous amounts of money. So we hope a lot of institutions take an example.

I really hope it's picked up more, and kind of leading off of that, do you think that the future for addressing period product accessibility in general is something that should be tackled by individual institutions like the way it is now? Do you think it's something that should be up to the discretion of like, whether a restaurant wants to provide this or not? Or do you think it should be a government initiative?

Pieter van Rossum:

In a perfect world, this isn't an individual responsibility. In a perfect world, this would be something that's provided by health insurance providers. I don't know if you know the Dutch health insurance system, but everybody has their health insurance, and then you have ‘de basispakket’ or the basic health insurance package, and a bunch of things that are in there, like GP and so on. It would be the most logical if it's just right there, but the thing is, it's not. I'm all for changing the whole political landscape, but with the fiscal conservatives and the liberals in power in the Netherlands, I don't see it happening anytime soon. And even if there was this political wave of yes, we need to do this, then it's going to take 20 years for this to actually be implemented, because that's just the way that Dutch institutions are formed. I wonder if some political party wants to write an initiative law on this. I'm all for it. We were also contacted by the municipality of Delft, and they were trying to do this on a municipality level to have it at all the government buildings at least. I don't know if they actually managed to do that, but that's already good. And to have this at municipality levels, because national politics is also very slow. And to add to what Nienke said, about why this all hasn't happened yet. I think there's a problem of awareness of people not knowing that period poverty is actually an issue. But there's a reason why people don't know. And the step for that is, well, if people who make these decisions are rich, privileged, men.... I mean, I'm not gonna get a period any time. And it's only because of empathy and knowing other people who do suffer periods that I know about this issue. Some people, like the reactionaries and conservatives, they just don't care. So I think that's also an issue.

I think there's a lot of truth to what you said. It's honestly really sad that the decision makers in our world are so removed from the context of real issues that it takes forever to get things done. And sometimes it really has to be from the bottom up. I'll ask one last question. Moving forward, do you think that sustainability is something that you have to factor in when you're doing this initiative? Because sustainability when it comes to period products is also a big topic at the moment. Was it something you considered when you started it? And is that something you think should be considered going forward?

Nienke Makkreel: 

I cannot say anything about if it was considered setting up the initiative. But just to go into it really quickly, sustainability is of course very important. And there are a lot of sustainable options out there for periods, but not all options are accessible to everyone. And then of course, accessible because of the financial costs, but also accessible in the way the alternatives are made. So not everyone can use, for example, a menstrual cup. It should definitely be a point of attention, but it shouldn't be the main decider on how to fill in such a project. So it should definitely be a point of attention, but also think about the accessibility of those sustainable options.

Pieter van Rossum:

I agree. In the beginning, like we said, we really wanted to do something that was easy, and getting sustainable menstrual products is definitely a bit more expensive. They can be less expensive in the long run, but especially when you're giving out menstrual products, there's a difference between someone who takes one cup, and who takes one menstrual tampon or pad. So it is easier to start small and I think this is something that you would expand towards, because even if you have unsustainable, quote unquote, menstrual products all over the university, then you can grow towards sustainable menstrual products. Some company who made sustainable menstrual products did contact us. But then we decided we actually want to have more boots on the ground before we start something like that. Like we said, projects like these fail a lot, so we don't want to tackle too much at once. In the long run, it's a comparable discussion with face masks: the reusable face masks are more sustainable, but you just have to use the non reusable face masks, because they work better. Sometimes it do be like that.

I think it's important to prioritize accessibility in an initiative like this over sustainability at least in the beginning, so I think it is the right call. It's also very insightful to hear you say that it is important to see what works for the people you’re trying to help, because the period cup might not work for the person that you’re trying to help because they prefer a tampon, you know? So I think that's very helpful, and I really hope that this amounts to something bigger and that this continues at the VU, maybe even expands as you said. So, that concludes the interview, thank you so much for both of your time. It'll be up on the website soon, I will let you know when it is and I'll definitely send it to you for approval first. If you could just double check that the recording is available either on your zoom account and just email it to me on a google drive maybe because the file might be big, wetransfer, whatever works, that would be amazing, when you do have the time, and yeah have a good rest of the day guys.

Nienke Makkreel: 

You too. It was a nice interview, so thank you too. I’m excited to see the final result.